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	<title>Comments on: How ancient is the constellation Delphinus?</title>
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	<link>http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2005/09/11/how-ancient-is-the-constellation-delphinus/</link>
	<description>Ancient science and the science of ancient things</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 03:04:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: KELLSYE</title>
		<link>http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2005/09/11/how-ancient-is-the-constellation-delphinus/#comment-12766</link>
		<dc:creator>KELLSYE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>YOUR WEBSITE IS AWSOME BYE FOR NOW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YOUR WEBSITE IS AWSOME BYE FOR NOW</p>
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		<title>By: Alun</title>
		<link>http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2005/09/11/how-ancient-is-the-constellation-delphinus/#comment-10933</link>
		<dc:creator>Alun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Dec 2006 22:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think I'll need you to send me a link to a suitable picture. There's an image of the fresco at &lt;a href="http://www.y2012.de/pictures/creta/bull_leaping_fresco.jpg" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://www.y2012.de/pictures/creta/bull_leaping_fresco.jpg&lt;/a&gt;, but that has a border of apsidal shapes with various patterns. I know Herberger has argued this is evidence of a complex luni-solar calendar, and it's certainly the sort of thing that you'd expect associated with Bronze-Age Crete. However, the border is largely reconstructed (Marshack &lt;em&gt;American Anthroplogist&lt;/em&gt; 1974:404). Additionally I don't think you find the same border elsewhere, so it's difficult to independently check. If you have references for later work then that would be helpful. Herberger's book is from 1972, so I wouldn't be surprised to hear there's more up-to-date research.

Unfortunately I can't name the figures as constellations either. There's evidence of transmission ideas from the Late Helladic period to Classical Greece, in names of Gods found in Linear B tablets, but I'm not sure if the same can be said for Linear A. One possible explanation for the change from Linear A to B might be Mycenaean conquestion of Crete, in which case it's possible that Minoan beliefs have been lost. However the precise nature of Linear A is up for a lot of debate. To be honest I can't even say with much certainty that the fresco is astronomical, so identifying the figures would be pure speculation on my part.

Even if I could show that the fresco was a calendar, this would not help prove the case that Delphinus was recognised and associated with Apollo in the eighth or seventh century BC. The favoured explanation for Apollo is that &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo#Origins_of_the_cult_of_Apollo" rel="nofollow"&gt;the cult rose in the Greek Dark Ages&lt;/a&gt;. This is after the collapse of the Bronze Age palace systems.

The reason I like the Blomberg's theory of Phaenomena transmitting this knowledge is that does tackle the problem of fairly complex astronomy being passed on. The difficulty I have is you have to accept Aratus writing a poem with an intentional precision of +/-2.5 degrees. This gives the best results, but there's not yet a strong justification for arguing that precision is important beyond the fact that it gives good results. If astronomical methods used Greece are found to have this precision then the Blombergs will have a very strong case.

Adding further problems to my claims, the next paper I want to work on will probably torpedo the idea of mythological accretion as inadequate for even vague dating. So the earliest I can place Delphinus at the moment with certainty is the mid 5th century BC.

Sorry if this isn't much help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;ll need you to send me a link to a suitable picture. There&#8217;s an image of the fresco at <a href="http://www.y2012.de/pictures/creta/bull_leaping_fresco.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.y2012.de/pictures/creta/bull_leaping_fresco.jpg</a>, but that has a border of apsidal shapes with various patterns. I know Herberger has argued this is evidence of a complex luni-solar calendar, and it&#8217;s certainly the sort of thing that you&#8217;d expect associated with Bronze-Age Crete. However, the border is largely reconstructed (Marshack <em>American Anthroplogist</em> 1974:404). Additionally I don&#8217;t think you find the same border elsewhere, so it&#8217;s difficult to independently check. If you have references for later work then that would be helpful. Herberger&#8217;s book is from 1972, so I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised to hear there&#8217;s more up-to-date research.</p>
<p>Unfortunately I can&#8217;t name the figures as constellations either. There&#8217;s evidence of transmission ideas from the Late Helladic period to Classical Greece, in names of Gods found in Linear B tablets, but I&#8217;m not sure if the same can be said for Linear A. One possible explanation for the change from Linear A to B might be Mycenaean conquestion of Crete, in which case it&#8217;s possible that Minoan beliefs have been lost. However the precise nature of Linear A is up for a lot of debate. To be honest I can&#8217;t even say with much certainty that the fresco is astronomical, so identifying the figures would be pure speculation on my part.</p>
<p>Even if I could show that the fresco was a calendar, this would not help prove the case that Delphinus was recognised and associated with Apollo in the eighth or seventh century BC. The favoured explanation for Apollo is that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo#Origins_of_the_cult_of_Apollo" rel="nofollow">the cult rose in the Greek Dark Ages</a>. This is after the collapse of the Bronze Age palace systems.</p>
<p>The reason I like the Blomberg&#8217;s theory of Phaenomena transmitting this knowledge is that does tackle the problem of fairly complex astronomy being passed on. The difficulty I have is you have to accept Aratus writing a poem with an intentional precision of +/-2.5 degrees. This gives the best results, but there&#8217;s not yet a strong justification for arguing that precision is important beyond the fact that it gives good results. If astronomical methods used Greece are found to have this precision then the Blombergs will have a very strong case.</p>
<p>Adding further problems to my claims, the next paper I want to work on will probably torpedo the idea of mythological accretion as inadequate for even vague dating. So the earliest I can place Delphinus at the moment with certainty is the mid 5th century BC.</p>
<p>Sorry if this isn&#8217;t much help.</p>
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		<title>By: William Kersey</title>
		<link>http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2005/09/11/how-ancient-is-the-constellation-delphinus/#comment-10895</link>
		<dc:creator>William Kersey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Surrounding the Minoan bull-leaping frescoe from Knosos is a series of icons of white dots on a  dark background (night sky and stars). The bull can be seen as shadows and highlights on the Moon and the Frescoe is a Lunar calendar and navigational aid. The supporting images are Minoan constellations. Name them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surrounding the Minoan bull-leaping frescoe from Knosos is a series of icons of white dots on a  dark background (night sky and stars). The bull can be seen as shadows and highlights on the Moon and the Frescoe is a Lunar calendar and navigational aid. The supporting images are Minoan constellations. Name them.</p>
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